Transcript:                    David Brower:  Here’s part two of our amazing interview with Jake Eagle.

Jake Eagle:                    Well, we’ve been doing these now for 15 years. About 20 years ago, we met an elderly couple. Their names were John and Joyce Weir. And they had been doing this work at that time for about 40 years. They actually developed it.

David Brower:              Wow.

Jake Eagle:                    And they were 85 years old at the time. We’d never met anybody like these people. They were vibrant. They were excited about life. They were open and available to share all sorts of things. And so we went to the last program they ever put on, the last retreat they ever put on.  We went to it, and my wife, Hannah, and I were kind of blown away. We just said, “This is amazing work,” and so we started to study with them. We studied with them for six years. And under their guidance, we ended up taking over the body of work they did.

The essence of the work is changing the way we speak. It’s a linguistic model. They called it perception language. And what they were teaching people to do was to talk in a way, to speak in a way where I take complete responsibility for whatever’s going on in my life, including my emotions. And so I never will talk as a victim after learning to speak in this way. Let’s say you and I have an interaction and something disappointing occurs. Instead of saying, “You disappointed me,” or, “You made me angry,” I would say, “I disappointment myself,” or, “I make myself angry,” because you don’t do these things to me. You may show up 10 minutes late for a meeting, but that doesn’t make me angry. You aren’t doing that to me. It’s my choice. It’s up to me how I make meaning of that event.

David Brower:              So is that like trying to take control of being judgemental?

Jake Eagle:                    Well, it is in that one of the tenets of this work is, we drop the idea of praise and blame. And when we let go of praise and blame, we’ve basically stopped being so judgemental.

David Brower:              Love that.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah. And what we’re really saying is, “If I were born with your DNA and your life experiences and lived in your shoes, I would probably do exactly what you do, so I’m in no position to judge you.” The only thing I am in a position to do is say, “Hey David, when you do this, I really make myself uncomfortable, or I really scare myself.” I’m going to give you that information that, that’s what I do, not that you’re doing it to me.

David Brower:              Right, right.

Jake Eagle:                    This makes it so much easier for people to communicate because what happens essentially is, we stop projecting stuff onto other people.

David Brower:              Yeah, yeah.

Jake Eagle:                    And the other thing in this work is that we speak almost entirely about what’s happening now. So instead of talking about some event that happened three weeks ago, where one of us was upset and we’re harboring feelings about it, the question is: What do you need now? What can I do for you right now in this moment? Because I can’t go back three weeks and change it.

David Brower:              But being in the moment is critical.

Jake Eagle:                    Being in the moment is critical and all these mindfulness courses and teachers talk about it, but I think the missing piece is the linguistic piece. They don’t take it to this point of saying, “Talk about what’s happening now,” as a very powerful way to keep people in the moment.

David Brower:              Is that the, I was reading up on some of your stuff, the neuro linguistic programming that you’ve done?

Jake Eagle:                    No. So prior to this work, which was called perception language or percept, prior to that I was a NLP, neuro linguistic programming therapist. I did that for about 15 years. And that’s called brief therapy, where people have various challenges, issues, problems, and that too is a linguistic model. But it’s different in that the therapist takes responsibility to shift the client’s perception. So I had a lot of power when I was an NLP therapist. As Hannah and I learned this other model, it was about empowering the client. Instead of the therapist having the power, the client has the power and the authority to work with themselves.

David Brower:              Oh my goodness.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah, and it got much better.

David Brower:              I got goosebumps on that one.

Jake Eagle:                    And much more effective.

David Brower:              That’s crazy good.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah. So going back to the retreats, they started off as this program where we were teaching people about how to use language in a different way. And that’s about safety consciousness. It’s all about me taking control of my own nervous system, because if I stop blaming other people for how I feel and I take responsibility, I start to calm down. I start to be able to have healthier relationships. I start to be able to communicate in a mature way. And as I do these things, my life becomes better and more stable and I become more mature. So that’s been our work for 15 years.

David Brower:              That’s fascinating.

Jake Eagle:                    Until this epiphany that I was telling you about, what happened after we came to Hawaii. And so now the program shifted a little bit in that we still teach people this new way to use language, but then in the second half of the program, we open up this concept of: How do we live more of the time in heart consciousness? How do we experience more gratitude in our lives?

David Brower:              Yeah.

Jake Eagle:                    And that’s really taken the program to a new depth. And this is interesting too, David. It’s just more fun.

David Brower:              I would think so. I would think it would be because it’s so liberating. You know? It’s so freeing. It’s so celebratory. But I would think too, as I say that out loud, that some of the people in your retreats may not get it yet. They may go, “Okay. I understand the definition of gratitude in Webster’s Dictionary. But how is that going to help me?” You know?

Jake Eagle:                    Some of the people are more attached to their stories than other people, but it’s part of why we spend the first part of our retreats helping people understand a very simple but profound idea, which is, nothing means anything other than the meaning that we give it.

David Brower:              Oh my goodness. That’s a T-shirt. That’s a T-shirt right there.

Jake Eagle:                    It should be, yeah, or a tattoo.

David Brower:              Or a tattoo, now you’re talking.

Jake Eagle:                    Right. And so as we help people loosen up their attachment to their stories and to feeling like a victim and to feeling burdened by their histories, and as people loosen all of that up, then they become open to the idea that maybe I can live with gratitude. Even if I’m doing something that’s difficult, why couldn’t I do it with a good attitude?

David Brower:              Yeah.

Jake Eagle:                    Why can’t I relate to my wife, even if I’m mad at her? Why can’t I relate to her in a loving way?

David Brower:              Well, just being conscious enough, and there’s your word again, just being conscious enough to pay attention to that, to ask the question. I mean, it’s like as you ask the question, it becomes more freeing and you become more accepted, or you find it easier to bring gratitude in your life as you let go of the so-called negative stuff. Right?

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah. That’s exactly it. The moment that we ask the question, and this is why the, am I thrilled to be alive, was such a powerful question for me. It’s a high contrast question. Right?

David Brower:              Right.

Jake Eagle:                    A lot of people I’ve asked it to, a lot of people say things like, “Well, I’m pleased. I’m satisfied. I have a good life.” And I go, “No, no. I know that. But are you thrilled?” And I’m trying to get me as well as other people, I’m trying for us to wake ourselves up and go, thrilled. And by thrilled, by the way, I don’t mean that has to be ecstatic. It’s more about being awake and appreciative.

David Brower:              Agree. I mean, I couldn’t do a cartwheel if I had to, but I can certainly be awake and alert and appreciative of everything around me.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah, exactly. I had a guy who’s kind of a poet with words. He wrote this to me. I’ll just read it. It’s two sentences. He said, “Perhaps when you add the idea of heart consciousness to the idea of being thrilled, you slow it down and you become more reverential and more honoring to the root etymology of the word thrill, which is to pierce, to penetrate.” He says, “That resonates in a much deeper and grounded and sustainable way. Perhaps the thrill is to pierce and penetrate the chaotic buzz of disingenuous living to see what is truly here and live in this place of heart consciousness.”

David Brower:              Oh my God.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah.

David Brower:              That’s powerful.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah.

David Brower:              No wonder you keep that handy.

Jake Eagle:                    I have it right on my desk.

David Brower:              Exactly.

Jake Eagle:                    I look at it 10 times a day.

David Brower:              Good for you, man. Wow.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah. Yeah. And so for me, the journey in the last few months is, I see myself go in and out. I go from heart to safety, heart to safety. And what I’m learning is that most of the time when I go to safety, which is where I kind of furrow my brow and I hunch my shoulders and I think I have to work, or I have to focus. Most of the time, whatever it is I have to do, I actually can do it with this heart consciousness. I can do it with gratitude. I did it this morning with our call. I knew you and I were going to talk, and I went to my desk and I started to make some notes. And I said, “Why do I have to do that? Why don’t I just go meditate for 10 minutes? And when David calls, I’ll be a nice space.”

David Brower:              Nice. I like it. I found myself doing something a little bit similar in that I pulled up all your books and I pulled up your website and I pulled up the email that I got from Courtney Blair. I’m going, “Why? Why?” I mean, just start the conversation.

Jake Eagle:                    Isn’t that cool?

David Brower:              That’s so cool.

Jake Eagle:                    How old are you?

David Brower:              How old am I? I’ll be 70 in July.

Jake Eagle:                    I’m 62. You’ve been figuring this stuff out, it sounds like, for the last 11 years. But wouldn’t it be great if we got this stuff when we were in our 30s?

David Brower:              Oh my God, absolutely.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah.

David Brower:              Absolutely. Yeah. I was talking with my … I have a 19 year old grandson in Oregon. We talked for a little over an hour yesterday. We try. We do that without making an effort and we just started doing that a couple years ago where we’ll talk for an hour, two hours, whatever it is. And he is, my God, he’s like the closest thing to a renaissance man I’ve ever seen. His faith is like crazy. And we get off into these wonderful conversations that have no starting point. They eventually end because we have something to do. But we go into all these different places and it makes us smile and it makes us laugh and it makes us take a look at the stuff that sucks and go, “Okay. Well, let’s try that.”

Jake Eagle:                    You are both very fortunate because that’s unusual.

David Brower:              It’s very. It shocks me.

Jake Eagle:                    It’s really special.

David Brower:              It shocks me. I told him that last night. I said, “I don’t know where we came to get here because for the first 17 years of your life, we had no relationship. And now for the last two years of your life, we’re inseparable.” I will take that all day.

Jake Eagle:                    Well, that gives me hope because I have a 15 year old grandson. He has no interest in talking to me because he’s so busy playing video games.

David Brower:              Right. That’s the way he was.

Jake Eagle:                    Maybe in a couple years, I’ll change.

David Brower:              Yeah. That’s exactly the way he was. He had all the video games. He was … Oh my God. And now it’s like … In fact, what changed his life was going to Kona.

Jake Eagle:                    Really?

David Brower:              Yeah, yeah. He went to Kona on a mission deal with some friends of his. And all of a sudden, he got just engulfed with all this unconditional love, friends from all over the world that he’d never met before, going to places in Hawaii that he only imagined, and just being moved in so many ways. And that really is what lit his fire up. I mean, he was like on fire.

Jake Eagle:                    Isn’t that fascinating?

David Brower:              Yeah, and now he’s back in the states. And we’ve been talking about, the last couple months probably, about what he wants to do, where he wants to go, whatever. And every time a conversation would come up I’d say, “Well Jacob, why aren’t you going back to Kona?” And so he told me last night. He said, “Gramps, I’m going back to Kona.” He signed up for, I think it’s called DTS. He signed up for a DTS school. He starts September 27th in Kona.

Jake Eagle:                    That’s fantastic. I mean, that’s exactly what I was saying that if we can learn this in our teens, our 20s, our 30s, it’s going to change the trajectory of our lives.

David Brower:              Yeah, yep.

Jake Eagle:                    You and I are both fortunate to have learned a lot of these things at a point and time when we can still take advantage of it, share what we learned with other people. And I love the story about your grandson.

David Brower:              Well, being able, you do what you do for lots of reasons, I’m sure. But paying it forward’s got to be a huge piece.

Jake Eagle:                    It is. As a matter of fact, the programs we do, we started two years ago having people apply for what we call the Pay Forward Scholarship. And we said, “If you see yourself taking this work, assuming it’s powerful for you, and you can tell us how you’ll pay forward, we’ll go out of our way to get you into one of our programs.”

David Brower:              Awesome.

Jake Eagle:                    And that’s what we do now. Yeah.

David Brower:              Awesome.

Jake Eagle:                    I’ve been doing these beta groups. I get 10 people together in a Zoom video conference, and I’ve been teaching them about accessing heart consciousness. And we’re not even charging for those. We’re just trying to get people to open up, to have this experience so they can share it with other people.

David Brower:              Wow.

Jake Eagle:                    That’s another nice part.

David Brower:              You and your wife have a magnitude of gifts, my friend, and it’s so cool to hear how you’re applying them, how you adapt them, how you rearrange them, just to make them work in today’s world. It’s a work in progress, I’m sure, but fascinating.

Jake Eagle:                    We are all works in progress and we’re still growing and learning, which is the fun part.

David Brower:              That is the fun part. Yeah. The day I quit learning, I’m going, “Yeah, I guess I’m done.” You know?

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah.

David Brower:              Well, we’ve got a few minutes left. I guess we’ll talk about your books.

Jake Eagle:                    Okay. All right.

David Brower:              So you’ve got several. They’re all available on Amazon. ReRight Your Life, an Introduction to Reology, Speak Love Not War, an Introduction to Green Psychology, Why Wait to be Happy? And this is my favorite one, Get Weird: Make the Most of Your Life.

Jake Eagle:                    And really, that’s the only one that matters because that one summarizes everything else.

David Brower:              Does it?

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah. It’s really the only relevant one at this point. Yeah. And Get Weird is kind of fun. So the people we studied with, our mentors, their lasts names were Weir.

David Brower:              Okay.

Jake Eagle:                    And so when people would go to one of their programs they would say, “Hey, I’m going to go get Weird.”

David Brower:              I love that. Wow.

Jake Eagle:                    So that’s part of it. And then the other thing is in mythology, there’s this ancient story about the three, they’re called the three weird sisters. They’re goddesses. And what they do is, one of them measures the cloths of life. The other ones spins it. And the other one cuts it. And as they work with the cloth, the fabric of life, they determine people’s fate.

David Brower:              Oh my gosh.

Jake Eagle:                    And so the idea of Get Weird was essentially saying take responsibility for your fate. Right? Manage your life. Yeah, so that’s where it came from. And then there’s a funny thing, which is that the language when you use it, when you say things like, “I frustrate myself, or I delight myself,” it’s a little weird. I mean, it’s not hard to understand, but it’s different.

David Brower:              Totally different.

Jake Eagle:                    It’s different.

David Brower:              Yeah.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Brower:              And I would think because anything that’s totally different has a benefit because it gets your attention. Right?

Jake Eagle:                    Wakes us up. Goes back to what you said earlier. It’s about being conscious, asking that question.

David Brower:              Wow. Are you going to do an audio book of Get Weird?

Jake Eagle:                    I never even thought about it. It makes sense that you would, given the voice work you do. I never thought about it. It’s a great idea.

David Brower:              Yeah. I think it would be fascinating because obviously your communication style is great. Your voice is great, and being able to share everything that your wife and you have learned and are developing would be … I think that’d be a fascinating project for you.

Jake Eagle:                    I’ll tell you something you and I might pursue privately. The book is written as a conversation. It’s between me and my brother back and forth. It’s at a time when he had just been diagnosed with cancer.

David Brower:              Oh wow.

Jake Eagle:                    Brain cancer, and it was a terminal illness. And he and I started this conversation. I turned it into the book. But what I said could be fun for you and I to talk about is, it would be a neat audio book with two people.

David Brower:              Oh my gosh.

Jake Eagle:                    Yeah.

David Brower:              Yeah. I’m in.

Jake Eagle:                    I’d love it.

David Brower:              I’d love it. I’m in. Yeah. Let’s talk about that some time because I’m all over that.

Jake Eagle:                    Okay. All right.

David Brower:              Hey man, this has been like crazy fun and so informative, so educational, so fun, so enlightening. And I hope a few people out there have an epiphany, or an ah-ha moment, or go onto your website, and learning more about what you and your wife do and all the opportunities there. I mean, you have webinars and podcast and online consultation, experimental retreats and 21 day courses and all kinds of stuff. So folks, if you even had a moment or even thought about an ah-ha moment, you need to go to Jake and Hannah’s website, and that is And you don’t have to go to Hawaii to learn, but it would be nice.

Jake Eagle:                    You don’t, but it’s a special experience.

David Brower:              Hey Jake, thanks, man. I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed this.

Jake Eagle:                    David, I look forward to staying connected with you. Thank you.

David Brower:              All right. Have a great day.

Jake Eagle:                    All right. Bye.

Speaker 1:                    Your 20 Minute Podcast with David Brower has been brought to you by Audible. You can listen to any of David’s podcasts anywhere podcasts can be found, including I Heart Radio, the Spotify mobile app, and at Until next time, thanks for listening.